Meet
the Flipsters
Conversations
on the Bridge |
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A Conversation with Dr. Peter
Senge
(The complete Flip interview, with only minor edits,
not found in the book)
Peter Senge, Ph.D. (www.solonline.org)
is a senior lecturer at the Massachusetts Institute
of Technology. His is also founding chair of the Society
for Organizational Learning (SoL), a global community
of corporations, researchers, and consultants committed
to increasing our capacity to collectively realize
our highest aspirations through the mutual development
of people and institutions.
Mr. Senge is the author of several books, including
the widely acclaimed The Fifth Discipline: The Art
and Practice of the Learning Organization (1990).
This book, which provides the knowledge for organizations
to transform rigid hierarchies into more fluid and
responsive systems, is widely credited with creating
a revolution in the business world. Since its publication,
more than a million copies have been sold, and in
1997, Harvard Business Review identified it as one
of the seminal management books of the past seventy-five
years.
We first asked Peter about how major organizations
have made the transformation from a traditional paradigm
to a whole-system perspective. “It comes about,
usually, in one of a couple of different ways,”
Peter observes. “A lot of people come to this
perspective more from an internal viewpoint. They
just believe there’s got to be a better way
to manage and lead. Typically, for example, maybe
somebody was part of a very innovative team or organization
setting early in their career but then found that
most of the rest of the bosses were Attila the Hun;
you know, people who just slammed their fist on the
table and demanded results and really didn’t
give a damn what effect it had on people. The contrast
to those two perspectives often leaves a lot of people
going, ‘I know there’s a better way. I
know there’s a better way to both achieve results
and do it in a way that people really grow.’
I think that’s one of the core premises that
we find again and again – that you can grow
a business through growing people, and the two are
not at odds with one another. So that’s what
I would characterize as sort of an internal perspective.
“Increasingly, there’s also an external
perspective. People are looking at the impact of a
business on communities in larger living systems and
saying, ‘This can’t continue.’ Basically,
most of the whole Industrial Age has been about harvesting
natural and social capital in order to produce financial
capital. We can’t do that forever. Years ago
people had to learn to live on our energy income,
not our energy capital. Today, we’re digging
up stuff that was put down under the earth hundreds
of millions of years ago. We can’t keep that
up. So, there’s also an external perspective
that says that we have to find a different way of
running businesses that produces social and environmental
well-being, not just destroys those in order to make
a buck.
“Today those two different sets of forces are
converging.”
Does Peter believe that our primary traditional institutions
are poised for a breakdown? “I think you can
see all of these changes as basically arising from
a kind of progressive breakdown in the traditional
order of things. Dee Hock, who was the founding CEO
of Visa and our advisor in creating SoL, says we live
in ‘an era of massive institutional failure.’
It’s hard to find any institutions, whether
they’re in business or education, social services
or government, that are really performing well. You
could say the healthiest institution is hardly healthy
if you look at the well-being of most of its members.
“Things are getting better, and things are
getting worse. Large corporations are not monolithic.
They contain all kinds of contradictions, because
they’re like small nations. On the negative
side, we’re seeing more top-down control. More
people are trying to grab power in order to make money.
More people are willing to exploit the resources of
an enterprise for their own personal gain. On the
positive side, we’re also seeing many examples
of people innovating in order to keep their enterprises
healthy in a very uncertain and rapidly changing business
context. These people are thinking holistically and
letting that thinking inform their actions. They are
discovering ways to grow people rather than just using
them – or using them up.
“Innovation never occurs among majorities;
it always occurs in minorities on the periphery. That
periphery can include people in big corporations or
entrepreneurs creating new organizations.
“But even if you take this idea of massive
institutional breakdown seriously, it’s not
like everyone wakes up one morning and says, ‘Ah,
we’ve got it all wrong. We need to change.’
Quite the opposite. What you see is most of the resources
of these institutions, most of the resources of society,
desperately trying to preserve the status quo. In
a time of breakdown, it’s a time of great fear.
And in this state of fear, people revert to what’s
most habitual. That’s a basic human instinct
wired into our neuro-anatomy and psychology.
“On the other hand, there are also innovators
who say, ‘Ah, this is a great space to create
something new.’ So in times of great change,
you see cross-currents and a clash of forces, and
I don’t expect that to get any easier.
“Just look at the behavior of our own country.
It’s extraordinarily hard for Americans to wake
up and realize that we live in a very different world
today. The twenty-first century is probably going
to be the Chinese century, not the American century.
Rapid shifts are occurring around the world in power
and influence, and yet we’re still acting like
everybody wants to be an American, and we have the
answer to all the world’s problems, and all
we have to do is help those poor people do it like
we do it.
“That’s a classic response to these kinds
of cross currents. In a state of fear, just as individuals
revert to what’s most habitual, societies try
to go back to their core traditions, and so what you
see is a turn to fundamentalism – people who
have the answer and the answer is the old way, whether
its Christian fundamentalism, Islamic fundamentalism,
or U.S. democratic fundamentalism.
“You see fundamentalists within business just
as you see fundamentalists within societies, who say
that the old way is the right way and we’re
going to seize power and keep power and traditional
ways of doing things. While most businesses cannot
deny that their markets are changing, they may still
try to cope by reasserting top-down control.”
We asked Peter for the antidote to fundamentalism
and rigid control. “It sounds strange, but one
thing that gets squeezed out of most people’s
work lives is the chance to think about and discuss
the really difficult, confusing issues confronting
their organizations. People have to get off the perpetual
treadmill of crisis reaction and set aside the time
to ask each other, ‘How is this working? How
do we need to adjust it? How do we communicate about
this?’
“That process is very risky, and people have
to trust each other. It requires the building of quality
relationships. People have to keep learning, and learning
is difficult, too. To be a learner you have embrace
the fact that you don’t have every answer and
don’t know how to do everything.
“Fortunately, many organizations are beginning
to look at their tougher issues and admit, ‘This
is complicated, and we can’t expect to figure
it out in one fell swoop. We have to keep trying new
things and create a continual adaptive orientation.
And we can’t do that without a different quality
of relationship and a different valuing of the social
environment.’”
Have Europeans been more open to a more holistic
model of business? “It depends on the particular
issues that you look at. For example, on environmental
issues, there has long been a much greater sensitivity
in the European societies and the European-based businesses.
People who live in relatively small countries have
had to deal a long time with the fact that there’s
no place to put all the junk. If we pollute our river,
it flows into your country.
“So today, the European Union (EU) is leading
the world in a whole host of new mandates for business.
For example, if you sell an automobile in Europe today,
the manufacturer is responsible for taking that automobile
back at the end of its lifetime. You can’t just
dump it in a hole someplace. This law, in fact, was
the result, in part, of a few European companies,
particularly BMW, doing pioneering work about fifteen
years ago designing cars for what’s called remanufacture
and recycle. There are a lot of valuable components
in the car, why don’t you design the car so
when it has completed its use, you bring it back and
reuse them? There’s actually a strong economic
case that can be made for that, if you design the
car with that in mind.
“However, you have to invest in building the
expertise. You have to invest in developing a different
approach to manufacturing. You have to invest in developing
a very different relationship with your suppliers
so they can work together with you to design a car
that can be taken apart at the end of its lifetime.
“The same is true in many consumer electronics.
Most consumer electronics, particularly the bigger
items in Europe today, must be taken back by the producer
at the end of the product’s use.
“The EU is also starting to get on top of the
toxins in products. It’s not bad luck that so
many of us have friends who have cancers in their
thirties and forties that nobody ever used to get
until they were seventy years old. Undoubtedly, the
two primary causes are our food and our manufactured
products. Toxins in our personal computers, or in
the dyes in our clothes, or in our children’s
plastic toys get there because manufacturers traditionally
haven’t really paid much attention to these
matters. They use materials based on cost and functionality.
If the chemicals that were in your kids’ plastic
toys or in textile dyes were put into a drug, they
would be regulated. But, by and large, if you put
it into a toy or a dye for a sweater, nobody regulates
it. The EU is starting to change all of that.
“The EU standards are quickly becoming global
standards. They are becoming global standards precisely
because corporations around the world work globally.
If you’re an automobile manufacturer and the
EU says, ‘You can’t use mercury switches
because they are harmful to the people who assemble
and disassemble cars,’ you’re not going
to do that just for the cars you sell in Europe. You
stop using the switches in any of the cars you manufacture.
“Big multi-national corporations don’t
create most of the jobs in the world; most of the
jobs in the world are created by smaller enterprises.
They’re also not the locus of a lot of technological
innovation. That often starts in smaller enterprises.
But they do have one really critical impact –
when a small number of big global corporations start
to say, ‘Well, we have a different quality standard
for something,’ that tends to shape an industry’s
standards.
“Even the United Nations – where the
traditional sentiment has been that business is bad,
not good – has realized this and reached out
to business by creating the UN Global Compact. For
most global initiatives to be successful, business
is going to have to play a key role.”
We asked whether Peter sees the flip occurring soon.
“This is a change that’s going to take
a long time to unfold,” he predicted. “We’re
dealing with deep shifts in our whole cultural outlook,
which has developed over literally thousands of years.
We have to distribute power and authority within our
enterprises. We have to recognize all kinds of differences
and give people lots of space to innovate, because
by the time we figure it all out from the top, it’s
much too late. The companies who will excel in the
transition to a new kind of business will be the ones
that can tap the imagination, spirit, energy, creativity,
and capability to innovate in their people. That’s
what I mean by learning to grow an enterprise by growing
the people.”
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The Flip, by Jared Rosen and David Rippe, illuminates
a clear path to a vibrant enlightened world where
millions of people already live and thrive. It describes
in vivid detail and real examples evidence of an upside
down world in decay and a Right Side Up world of authentic
beings bright with possibility.
The Flip is an owner’s manual for the twenty-first
century full of insights, conversations with recognized
experts, thought leaders, and visionaries, and actionable
exercises and tips you can use to begin your own personal
flip.
To read more about The Flip
and additional interviews from other luminaries, experts
and bestselling authors, please visit www.theflip.net
The Flip is available at your
local bookstore or online at
Amazon.com, Barnes
& Noble, Joseph-Beth,
and Borders.
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